Consider Lily

A few weeks ago we discussed femininity…what it looks like for each of us, what we aspire to, how we perceive it, etc. I thought it was timely, then, as I was looking over the most recent statistics sheet that we “Consider Lily” folks pass around, that behavioral researchers have suggested that “young men seem to be confused by what is expected of them” and “unsure of how to act.” In fact there have been a number of books recently released tackling that specific issue. So, after all the fun we had talking about who we are and what makes us “feminine,” I thought it only fair for us to turn the tables. As women of varying ages, life experiences, beliefs, and expectations, what do we believe makes a “guy” a “man”? What are the little, every day things that we associate with male maturity? What are the bigger, more serious issues that “real men” find their identity in? Seriously, who ARE these crazy people, anyway?

Spiritual leadership. No doubt about it. The Bible tells us that men should be leaders in the home and in the church. I think the most masculine man is one who shows solid servant leadership skills, no matter what his personality. Ephesians 5 tells men to be the head of their wives, and then love her like Jesus loves us, laying down his life for us. That’s a pretty tall order, but when men step up to the challenge and learn to lead with Christ as their role model, that’s pretty dang manly. I think it’s important for men to realize, Godly leadership is not like CEO, worldly, Donald Trump type leadership. A man might have a quiet, soft spoken, easy going personality, but he can still be an amazing leader. My Dad is a perfect example. He was the leader of our home and is a pastor of a church. His personality did not dictate his leadership skills, but God developed those abilities in him over time and his seeking the Lord. Consequently, I’m looking for ways to cultivate leadership in my boys because they are ultimately called upon to lead someday.

Jenn, that’s an excellent point about a man being capable of strong leadership regardless of his personality. I think some of us women equate a macho, extroverted, public speaker with “leader.” But God can build any personality towards serving, leading, and setting a godly example for his family and circle of influence. When I look at Jesus’ personality on earth, I can see times when he is that outspoken people-magnet, and also times when he’s more contemplative, even introverted.

One other trait I’d add under the umbrella of Real manhood is Maturity. It’s hard to pin down an exact description (and it’s a lifelong process I’m sure), but I’d venture to say that if a guy is immature (think more like foolish, childish, avoiding responsibility, lacking tact or respect) he will not receive the respect due to a “real man.” I’m sure I’ll get some disagreement on this one – so let me just clarify I’m not saying a Godly man can’t HAVE FUN, laugh at life, and share humor. Good grief, some guys who I can tell are working hard at being Real Men are just too serious and somber! But the Maturity factor is one that is easy to spot when you examine a guy’s priorities, the way he spends his time, the way he treats his family and friends, etc.

Those are some of the big ticket items for me. I’m curious about responses to Nicole’s question about the every day things that we associate with a guy being a man? Can guys wear pink?

I think there’s a long list of traits we associate with being “manly.” When I think of the stereotypical “manly man,” I think of a guy who loves watching (and playing) sports, doesn’t like to read, works out a lot, and avoids long or emotional conversations. Like Jenn and Allie said, I think that our ideas “masculine” sometimes border on “macho,” which doesn’t seem too far from “caveman.”

That’s my knee-jerk idea of what masculinity is, but I think that the caveman version of masculinity is the default version that a lot of men fall into when their relationships with God are weak or nonexistent. I think that masculinity, when it’s working right, has a sense of purpose and adventure to it. Honestly, the effect that Christianity has on men (and women, but that’s another topic) is one of the things that confirms my faith. Have you noticed that when men get closer to God, they become more mature as individuals, get more focused, and exude a really cool strength of character? Sign me up for the faith that has that kind of effect in the real world!

GREAT last thought there, Sally!! Love it! Okay….there is no surprise (I don’t think) on what I am going to say on this one. I actually give a talk to college men called “She Might Just Be That Into You” in which this topic is addressed in the sense of what women want from men (based on informal research through Lily7 and events/conferences) and what the Bible says about it. Leadership has already been mentioned so I’ll take it one step further and add on to what Sally just addressed: I think masculinity also encompasses the ability to pursue...be it in the dating realm, a career, whatever. Obviously, pursuit to be more like Christ is a personal favorite here. Most women I know tend to complain about men “not acting like men” and when you ask them what they are talking about – it usually hinges on this idea of “being pursued.” I don’t think that the ability to pursue looks the same for every guy (as was already mentioned in regard to what leadership might look like), but I do think that there is an innate (created in us) desire to see men pursue. For some of us, this may conjure up images of men hunting or fighting for a “right” cause (I actually just heard a talk on this very issue by Craig Groeschel in which he argues that every man NEEDS a cause to fight for as part of his masculinity), but I’m not sure there is just one “visual” for this. So…initially, my response here is that masculine men are men who pursue… as to what that looks like, I think there could be numerous responses. The end result, however, is that they are not “passive” men – they are “pursuing” men.

A few scripture references for men to look at include Titus 1, Ephesians 5, and the book of Proverbs (much of the time, written from father to son, giving specific advice to men, even warning against treacherous women!) Ephesians 5 I already referenced, in the role of husband and father in the family. But Titus 1 gives the qualifications of an elder in the church as follows: Titus 1:7-9
7 An elder must live a blameless life because he is God’s minister. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered; he must not be a heavy drinker, violent, or greedy for money. 8 He must enjoy having guests in his home and must love all that is good. He must live wisely and be fair. He must live a devout and disciplined life. 9 He must have a strong and steadfast belief in the trustworthy message he was taught; then he will be able to encourage others with right teaching and show those who oppose it where they are wrong. While I know many younger men are not looking toward the position of elder in the church right now, the scripture also says that all men should be striving toward these qualifications. (looking for that reference, Sally.) The other qualifications not included in that excerpt include the kind of husband and father a man should be, which is also worth looking at. I think these things truly lay out what the Godly, mature man should look like!

It’s interesting to me how quickly we have used verbage describing how a man should be in relationship with a woman to describe masculinity. When we discussed femininity, it was a long ways into blogging before anyone tied femininity to how we relate with men.
My point: just as we women need to figure out who we are (who God has made us) entirely separate from a man, we need to give men that same freedom.
Nikki’s point about men being pursuers vs. passive is a good one…as long as “pursuer” is describing their work, their knowledge, their passions, their God…as opposed to just their “romantic interest”.
The Titus 1 verses are great descriptors of a Godly man, and throughout the Bible there are men whose lives we can look to for characteristics of “manliness”. With this in mind, I think we can do a better job of answering the original question (”what makes a ‘guy’ a ‘man’?”). Thoughts?

For me, personally, a “guy” is a “man” when he is wise about how he spends his time. For example, he doesn’t spend his time playing Xbox all day long. I’m not trying to be harsh about this, but I just get tired of seeing so many guys spending so much time “pursuing” video games and to what end? What “growth” happens there? (Maybe one could argue that combat games on Xbox prepare one for the military…) I will also just say that I am a big fan of movies like Gladiator, Braveheart, the Batman Begins/Dark Knight series, etc. I guess that I am attracted to these type of movies because I see the male characters there as “men” who are strong in character and in their passions for “pursuing” a just cause. When I think of masculinity – I immediately think of examples like the characters found in those films. (See….I really do see this “pursuit” thing as part of masculinity… ) And to add on to KJ’s point (which I think is quite valid) – these were characters who were not pursuing romantic relationships, per se. Their pursuit was in the realm of good vs. evil and seeing justice achieved.

I think you guys are all making excellent points. Nikki, your post made me think about what it looks like for guys to fight for something in the “good versus evil” category. My reaction was: what happens when a guy works a desk job? What happens when there’s no obvious evil in his life to fight against – where does this apply in the daily grind of a man’s life (obviously, we wouldn’t be too happy with a man who tackled his neighbor for failing to pick up the mess that Fido just left – I think we can agree that a man needs a sense of what is evil and what is merely annoying!)? Does a man need an advancing army or an action sequence to be masculine?

I tried applying that question to my dad. While he’s not perfect by any means, I very much respect my dad, and he’s the person I think about when I hear the word “character.” Dad prioritizes his relationship with God, he prioritizes his relationship with my mom over his relationships with us kids, and he works sacrificially to take care of all of us. He fixes faucets and paints the garage when needed. His relationships, his job, and his free time are all parts of the “daily grind” of his life, and yet there’s a definite sense of purpose there. This might be repeating the examples you’ve all been giving, and I know that I might have just described “Type A Personality” more than “Godly character in men,” but that’s what this all looks like in practice to me!

Before I get started, I just wanted to apologize for not keeping up with the blogs. Life has been crazy busy, and honestly I kept forgetting to post! However, when I saw the topic of this blog, I suddenly had the urge to NOT forget to post this time. I don’t know why that is…

This is good stuff, ladies. I’m excited to share my perfectly masculine opinion on this subject I know so well. Okay, that statement may not be completely accurate, but humor isn’t immature (as we’ve already established), so don’t count it against me, alright?

To start, I’d like to echo what Nikki (what’s good, big sis?!) said about how a guy spends his time wisely (or not so wisely), and how that affects his “manliness.”

(Note: In this post, I will be addressing biblical masculinity or “manliness” in particular. So questions like, “should guys where pink?” will not be addressed. Although, just to be clear – I do not wear clothes that are more than 20% pink.)

How a man spends his time is a huge indication of what kind of a man he is. Nikki, what you said about video games is right on. I know you weren’t trying to be harsh, but I will be. If a guy stays up all night to play video games, works all day to make money to buy more video games, and uses his vacation days to host Halo tournaments at his mom’s house with all of his buddies, what is that going to get him? Or maybe a more appropriate question to ask is, Where is that going to get him? Don’t get me wrong, there was a time in my life when this guy was me, and I commonly refer to that time as “High School.”

This applies to many more time-consuming activities. I just figured I’d keep with the video game example since Nikki is a pro and knows more about college men than I do.

In all seriousness though, I believe the talk about a pursuit is right on. As mentioned before, this doesn’t necessarily mean romantic pursuit (although it is certainly included), but this includes all aspects of life. Pursuing a career, spiritual growth, a community, relationships, etc., is all a part of what a Godly man pursues.

If a man is to become the man God created him to be, then he must use his masculine tendencies to pursue Jesus with all that he has – his money, his time, his energy, etc. The opposite of this is someone who spends hours and hours online checking his fantasy football rankings while blogging about how many weapons his World of Warcraft character has. Not only is this man not going to be the Godly man he is called to be, but he is not going to challenge and lead other men. In addition, I personally don’t know any women who would even think about going on a date with a guy like this.

Before I continue, let me be clear on a couple things. First of all, I don’t mean to pick on guys who enjoy fantasy football, World of Warcraft, or Halo. These things are not bad in and of themselves, and I personally have enjoyed them all at one point in my life. However, my pastor often says sin is not just limited to bad things (murder, lying, etc.), but it is also sin when we make good things great. So, my point is these hobbies and games can and do become idols (someone or something we worship besides God) for many men, and Christian men are called to something much greater than winning a Halo tournament.

Second, challenging other men and pursuing marriage are great things for a man to pursue. However, I would be careful not to let these good pursuits become great. These are not the worth-defining pursuits. Godly manliness is not ultimately gauged by whether or not men challenge other men, or are pursuing marriage.

So what does make a man Biblically masculine? What is it that men need to pursue in order to grow in their God-given masculinity??

God, through Jesus, lovingly pursued us in order to save us from Satan, our sin, and the world (see Philippians 2:5-8). Jesus gave all of His time and energy towards selflessly loving others. In response to what Jesus has done, God calls us to give ourselves fully to Him. In Exodus 20, God declares, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.” He then starts the Ten Commandments by saying, “You shall have no other gods before me.” In the New Testament, Jesus says this is the most important commandment of all (Mark 12:28-30). Therefore, a man’s pursuit to not have any other gods before God should be his primary pursuit.

In light of all this, I am sure all of my brothers out there are asking, “How do I pursue the one, true God with my entire life?” Well, I’m glad you asked! We pursue Jesus-the One who perfectly pursued God, in our place, even when it meant death on a cross. This is biblical masculinity-this selfless, humble, yet confident pursuit of something or someone worthy of our lives-even if it means we literally lose our life. Jesus was tempted in every way we are, yet He was without sin. He had no other gods but God. In contrast, we are tempted and we sin. We have many other gods besides God. Because of this, we cannot rely on our own ability to pursue God. Instead, we must trust and hope in Jesus, who has already perfectly pursued God, where we could not.

When men pursue Jesus, who is the ultimate example of masculinity, they discover the masculinity God has called them to. Then, and only then, do men zealously read their Bibles, love their wives, father their children, and challenge other men to do the same. They do not pursue these things out of duty, but out of gratitude to the One who first pursued them.

Wow. I’ve been known to enjoy a video game or two (or ten…). I’m glad I’m not being measured on this new “no video games” masculinity scale

I posted last night (apparently while Jeremy was also posting) and so now everything that I typed is gone…bad, bad, bad. It was just some general rambling and I think Jeremy has really done quite a nice job, so you’re all the better for having his thoughts in lieu of mine…

Sadly, I must run off to sell cupcakes (but first, I have to work on my fantasy football line-up for this week…).

Great thoughts on a really hard question. I’m so happy we’re talking about this! I think this has SUCH importance for our readers, both while they consider who to date/marry, but also to better illuminate their own femininity. I do believe that masculinity and femininity were designed to complement each other, and both reflect beautiful parts of God’s character.

I think a lot of men, Christian men especially, shy away from their responsibilities and duck out of their duties and callings as men because they want to protect their own sense of comfort. And while I’ve known men like this, and generally find that they are interesting people, I rarely come to respect them. And that this is what I think a real man naturally garners: respect.

So when I think of a mighty mighty good man, I think of someone that takes responsibility for his life, someone who isn’t lazy and doesn’t make excuses. This has already been mentioned some (and thanks Jeremy for the male insight! So valuable!), but I really want to reiterate it: a man works. This was part of the masculine identity God gave men in the Garden of Eden: women bear children, and men labor. He works to provide for his family; He works to protect his friends; He works to bring restoration to the lives of people around him; and he works with the confidence and humility of knowing his identity is in Christ, and not in his work. I don’t want to apply traditional stereotypes to this idea though, because I don’t think this means a man has to be the main bread-winner of his family (or that women shouldn’t work). But I do think this means a man must assume responsibility for the well-being of his family, and must labor towards something. I think that child-rearing could very well be the job that a man labors and works towards. (I like the picture of your Dad, Sally. It sounds like he does a great job of taking responsibility, even for the small things.) To be responsible, I believe, is a display of strength.

Also, I think another key to Biblical masculinity can be found one of the most perplexing juxtapositions in Jesus’ character (and we all know that Jesus is the Mighty Mighty Best Man!): simultaneous leadership and servant-hood. A real man leads, but he leads not for power or for control, he leads so that he may serve.

I think all of this is a great multi-faceted discussion on the topic. KJ, I understand your point about the femininity blog not being all about females relating with guys, but since we are writing this Manly blog from a female standpoint, to a female readership, I think our conversation will naturally bend towards how we perceive men from our experiences (which to me says: relationships with them). I think our female readers will relate well with our thoughts about what kind of guy we’d like to marry and be pursued by. That slant didn’t bother me. I think Jeremy added the perspective you were looking for — since he’s a guy and has first-hand perspective, and doesn’t need the bridge of relationship to facilitate our discussion of manly men.

I do love that this conversation landed on the directives of Scripture, because that’s tangible stuff that we can use to perceive and pray for the men we know!

This entry was posted on Friday, November 7th, 2008 at 9:15 am and is filed under Body, Mind, Social, Soul. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.